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Il n’est pas question... Imprimer
Auteur : Vianney
Sujet : Il n’est pas question...
Date : 2010-03-03 08:13:15

...pour un simple fidèle de “juger” qui que ce soit, mais ce n’est pas non plus ce que demande saint Paul : il nous demande de comparer les enseignements. C’est donc qu’il estime tout fidèle, armé de sa foi, suffisamment “compétent” pour cela.

Même en laissant le soin aux théologiens de déterminer le degré d’autorité de Quanta Cura et de Dignitatis Humanæ, ces documents sont d’ordre doctrinal, ils prétendent s’appuyer sur la Révélation, et ils s’adressent à l’Eglise universelle.

La principale différence entre les deux, c’est que l’enseignement de Pie IX est conforme à celui de ses prédécesseurs, proches ou lointains (le pape en cite plusieurs, de saint Léon à Grégoire XVI), ce qui n’est pas le cas de celui de Vatican II. Le R.P. Congar, expert chargé de la question, a même reconnu après coup que Dignitatis Humanæ n’avait aucun fondement dans l’Ecriture Sainte !

Une autre différence est que Pie IX condamne explicitement les contradicteurs, tout comme saint Pie X d’ailleurs. Ce dernier a même imposé à tous les prêtres le serment antimoderniste.

Cependant si Pierre n'est pas Pierre l'Eglise n'est plus Eglise !


L’Eglise est une personne morale, elle ne se résume pas à un homme. Vous voulez voir en lui une sorte d’assurance “omnium”, mais l’Eglise, je l’ai déjà expliqué ailleurs, ne vous suit pas sur ce point : et là, il ne s’agit plus de l’opinion de simples théologiens, mais de constitutions apostoliques, de décrets, etc. ayant pour auteurs des papes (Innocent III, Paul IV, saint Pie V) très sourcilleux sur les prérogatives attachées aux successeurs de Pierre.

V.

N.B. Il ne s’agit pas non plus seulement de cas purement théoriques : j’ai rappelé le jugement de l’Eglise sur le pape Honorius, et l’opposition de saints évêques au pape Pascal II. Paul IV, quant à lui, visait un ou plusieurs cardinaux “papabile” : le futur saint Pie V, grand inquisiteur à l’époque, avait été chargé de l’enquête, il connaissait bien le dossier, et il a confirmé la législation de Paul IV.


La discussion

 Espagne : journée noire pour la Vie !, de Cristo [2010-02-25 13:10:41]
      Vatican II est responsable !, de Jean-Paul PARFU [2010-02-25 14:27:38]
          Question concernant la modification du Fuero., de Meneau [2010-02-25 17:06:34]
              Précision, de Meneau [2010-02-25 17:09:48]
                  C'est bien le St Siège qui a obligé, de Jean-Paul PARFU [2010-02-25 17:41:24]
                      C’est en effet de Paul VI..., de Vianney [2010-02-25 18:21:22]
                          Merci cher Vianney, de N.M. [2010-02-25 18:52:46]
                              Votre référence est beaucoup plus sûre..., de Vianney [2010-02-25 20:12:00]
                                  Merci !, de Meneau [2010-02-27 00:42:08]
                                      Une question de cohérence, de Vianney [2010-02-27 16:26:06]
                                      Des indications beaucoup plus précises, de Vianney [2010-02-27 17:33:19]
                                          Encore merci !, de Meneau [2010-02-27 18:54:25]
                                              Cela semble pourtant suffisant, de Anton [2010-02-27 19:02:48]
                                                  La parole est à la défense..., de Vianney [2010-02-27 19:16:27]
                                                      Pour faire passer, de Anton [2010-02-27 19:44:39]
                                                          En somme, merci!, de Gentiloup [2010-02-27 19:49:55]
                                                          la succession, de Fioretti [2010-02-27 19:57:50]
                                                          Vous avez eu raison..., de Vianney [2010-02-27 20:37:53]
                                                              Pourtant c'est bien en vous lisant., de Anton [2010-02-27 21:27:38]
                                                                  Quand bien même..., de Vianney [2010-02-27 22:14:47]
                                                                      Cher Vianney, de Anton [2010-02-27 23:13:59]
                                                                          Votre non-réponse à ma question..., de Vianney [2010-02-28 07:13:03]
                                                                              mais Vianney , vous savez bien, de pyo [2010-02-28 07:50:30]
                                                                                  Mettez-vous à sa place..., de Vianney [2010-02-28 09:25:21]
                                                                              Mais comment faites vous., de Anton [2010-02-28 13:18:35]
                                                                                  Comme vous dites si bien..., de Vianney [2010-02-28 14:37:30]
                                                                                       Maintenant comment allez vous prétendre, de Anton [2010-02-28 15:03:27]
                                                                                          Vous jouez au rugby ?, de Scribe [2010-02-28 15:09:21]
                                                                                              Vous connaissez les règles., de Anton [2010-02-28 15:27:53]
                                                                                                  Quand justifierez-vous ce que vous avancez ?, de Scribe [2010-02-28 17:34:15]
                                                                                                      Je croyais que c'était à ceux , de Anton [2010-02-28 21:59:20]
                                                                                                          N'importe quoi, de Meneau [2010-03-01 00:07:43]
                                                                                                              Vous en connaissez une autre, de Anton [2010-03-01 13:40:47]
                                                                                                                  Ce n'est pas la quantité qui fait la qualité, de Meneau [2010-03-01 16:29:30]
                                                                                                                      Il me semble que l'abbé Lucien, de Anton [2010-03-01 18:20:01]
                                                                                                  Dites plutôt..., de Vianney [2010-02-28 17:48:35]
                                                                                                      Il est évident, de Anton [2010-03-01 13:58:34]
                                                                                                          “Hors contexte”, de Vianney [2010-03-01 14:42:58]
                                                                                                              Essayons d'être clair et précis...., de origenius [2010-03-01 14:55:41]
                                                                                                                  Je vous renvoie à la discussion..., de Vianney [2010-03-01 15:50:29]
                                                                                                                      Le vatican ayant le droit de réprimer, de Anton [2010-03-01 15:56:25]
                                                                                                                          Pas le Vatican..., de Vianney [2010-03-01 16:27:19]
                                                                                                                              Luther?, de Anton [2010-03-01 18:02:53]
                                                                                                                                  Mon cas n’est pas bien grave alors..., de Vianney [2010-03-01 18:55:21]
                                                                                                                                      Ah ce bon St Paul !, de Halleluia [2010-03-01 22:56:19]
                                                                                                                                          Pauvre, de Paxtecum [2010-03-02 00:14:35]
                                                                                                                                              Un peu court..., de Vianney [2010-03-02 08:27:11]
                                                                                                                                                  A cause de cet article :, de Halleluia [2010-03-02 20:55:28]
                                                                                                                                                      Je vous comprends..., de Vianney [2010-03-02 21:21:55]
                                                                                                                                                      Oh relevez, de Paxtecum [2010-03-03 00:35:28]
                                                                                                                                                  J'entends bien, de Paxtecum [2010-03-03 01:36:23]
                                                                                                                                                      Il n’est pas question..., de Vianney [2010-03-03 08:13:15]
                                                                                                                                                          Pardon?, de Anton [2010-03-03 11:19:39]
                                                                                                                                                              À votre service..., de Vianney [2010-03-03 14:30:07]
                                                                                                                                                                  Vous ne mélangez pas un peu les notions, de Anton [2010-03-04 09:41:53]
                                                                                                                                                                      Complément de réflexion...., de origenius [2010-03-04 11:07:27]
                                                                                                                                                                          Complétude et abracadabritude, de Gentiloup [2010-03-04 11:30:20]
                                                                                                                                                                              Le Christ, époux... vous dit le contraire , de Glycéra [2010-03-04 11:43:43]
                                                                                                                                                                                  Cela ne concerne pas la doctrine..., de Vianney [2010-03-04 12:14:36]
                                                                                                                                                                                      Vous jouez à quoi, Vianney ?????, de origenius [2010-03-04 12:26:04]
                                                                                                                                                                                          Simple mise au point..., de Vianney [2010-03-04 14:19:58]
                                                                                                                                                                                              Simple erreur de lecture ?, de Glycéra [2010-03-04 14:28:29]
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Relisez le catéchisme du concile de Trente, de Vianney [2010-03-04 15:09:32]
                                                                                                                                                                                                      Bien sûr, mais..., de Etienne [2010-03-04 15:37:53]
                                                                                                                                                                                                          Oui, mais là on se place sur un tout autre plan.. [...], de Vianney [2010-03-04 16:06:32]
                                                                                                                                                                                                              Hmmm..., de Etienne [2010-03-04 16:54:31]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Ce n’est pas impossible, remarquez..., de Vianney [2010-03-04 17:43:39]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Est-ce bien possible........, de origenius [2010-03-06 11:05:59]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Un bon conseil de Chateaubriand..., de Vianney [2010-03-20 17:13:22]
                                                                                                                                                                                              Vous n'avez strictement rien compris..., de origenius [2010-03-04 14:30:26]
                                                                                                                                                                                                  sauf que, de Scribe [2010-03-04 14:34:50]
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Seigneur! Hâtez-vous de nous secourir., de Castille [2010-03-04 16:13:08]
                                                                                                                                                                      Mais non, mais non..., de Vianney [2010-03-04 12:07:36]
                                                                                                                                                                          Le veau d'or, de Anton [2010-03-04 13:29:56]
                                                                                                                              Choquant !..., de origenius [2010-03-01 18:14:39]
                                                                                                                                  Seigneur!!! Vianney, de pyo [2010-03-01 18:33:28]
                                                                                                                                      En ce moment..., de Vianney [2010-03-01 19:41:49]
                                                                                                                                          Le Chef c'est le Christ, de Anton [2010-03-01 19:46:26]
                                                                                                                                              Mais le chef ne change pas sa doctrine, de Vianney [2010-03-01 20:23:09]
                                                                                                                                                  Elle n'a jamais changé, de Anton [2010-03-02 13:26:13]
                                                                                                                                                      Et c’est reparti..., de Vianney [2010-03-02 14:40:30]
                                                                                                                                  Les citations sont précisément là..., de Vianney [2010-03-01 19:32:25]
                                                                                                                      Je vous renvoie à mes 2 questions..SVP..., de origenius [2010-03-01 16:03:28]
                                                                                                                          Je vous redonne les mêmes réponses, de Vianney [2010-03-01 16:22:57]
                                                                                                                      Le droit naturel au règne de Dieu sur les nations, de Gentiloup [2010-03-01 18:51:10]
                                                                                                                          Encore on tronque, mais conforme à DH, de Anton [2010-03-01 19:34:12]
                                                                                                                              C'est vous qui tronquez!, de Gentiloup [2010-03-01 19:45:18]
                                                                                                                                  Encore un petit effort..., de origenius [2010-03-01 19:59:42]
                                                                                                                                      Je dois préciser en effet!, de Gentiloup [2010-03-01 23:04:37]
                                                                                                                                  Pas tout à fait, de Anton [2010-03-02 12:17:24]
                                                                                                                                      A propos du Temple, mon cher Anton.., de origenius [2010-03-02 13:38:40]
                                                                                                              Ce n'est pas Dieu qui est en cause, de Anton [2010-03-01 15:30:00]
                                              Non, pour l’instant..., de Vianney [2010-02-27 19:03:29]
      Avortement autorisé depuis les années 80, de Edouard R [2010-02-25 18:34:01]
          En France aussi, au même moment..., de jejomau [2010-02-25 20:13:41]