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Même sans Mgr Gherardini... Imprimer
Auteur : Gentiloup
Sujet : Même sans Mgr Gherardini...
Date : 2010-02-15 12:59:01


C'est pourquoi je faisais appel à votre intercession pour lui signaler que les blagues à deux balles ne suffisent pas à me convaincre que Mgr Gherardini affirme le contraire de l' "hommage religieux, interne et externe" que nous devons au minimum à Vatican II. (Athanasios D.)



Pour ma part je n'ai pas lu l'ouvrage de Mgr Gherardini, par contre j'ai lu les interventions de leurs Éminences les cardinaux Ottaviani* (2ème personnage du Vatican à l'époque) et Ruffin* sans compter les analyses fort fouillées de Mgr Lefebvre qui reprennent exactement les positions de ces cardinaux qui s'opposent à la Révolution qui s'annoncent.

Cela me suffit amplement pour ne pas rendre un "hommage religieux, interne et externe"(Athanasios) à Vatican II. Hommage auquel je ne me sens non seulement pas tenu du tout, mais en plus que j'estime de mon devoir de combattre au nom de la Tradition, ainsi que nous le commande Saint-Paul: "Si un ange du ciel, si moi-même vous annonçait un autre Évangile que celui que je vous ai toujours annoncé, qu'il soit anathème."

Notes* :
Citations du cardinal Ottaviani:


- "Il est exagéré de dire que celui qui obéit à sa conscience est digne d'honneur" [contrairement à ce qu'affirme D.H.] "Il faut ajouter celui qui obéit à sa conscience BIEN FORMÉE"




- "Il ne faut pas que ce soit contraire au bien de Dieu"




- "Il est extrêmement grave de dire que n'importe quelle religion est digne de se propager"



Citations du cardinal Ruffin à propos du texte sur la Liberté religieuse:


- "Ce texte qui encourage l'indifférentisme religieux"



- "Ce texte ne dit guère plus que les Droits de l'Homme de 1948"



La discussion

 Quelle surprise : Saint Pie X approuvait l'oecumé [...], de Philippeg [2010-02-14 03:17:34]
      non !, de jejomau [2010-02-14 08:55:50]
          Prier pour l'unité, de L'enchanteur [2010-02-14 09:57:28]
              le terme "subsitste" est une invention p [...], de FilsDeMarie [2010-02-14 11:06:25]
                  Subsister’ signifie la perpétuelle continuité  [...], de Maximilien [2010-02-14 17:10:08]
          [réponse], de Lux [2010-02-14 11:25:30]
      Non !, de Pétrarque [2010-02-14 09:18:31]
          non, l'oecumenisme avant , de pyo [2010-02-14 09:28:42]
              Pardon Pyo..., de Pétrarque [2010-02-14 12:47:43]
                  non,Pétrarque! à notre amie, de pyo [2010-02-14 13:21:37]
                      Tout va bien..., de Pétrarque [2010-02-14 17:37:07]
          Rupture, de Aigle [2010-02-14 09:40:25]
              Je n'adhère que très partiellement..., de Pétrarque [2010-02-14 12:59:38]
                  Franchise, de Lux [2010-02-14 14:03:10]
                      Votre opinion est dangereuse, de Aigle [2010-02-14 18:56:22]
                          Votre opinion est très dangereuse, de Scribe [2010-02-14 19:03:39]
                              Vous croyez ?, de Aigle [2010-02-14 19:11:06]
                                  Non !, de Scribe [2010-02-14 19:15:19]
                                      J'ajoute, de Meneau [2010-02-14 19:20:05]
                                      Dogme ou pas dogme ?, de Aigle [2010-02-14 19:21:42]
                                          Mgr Gherardini a récemment répondu à votre obj [...], de Ennemond [2010-02-14 19:26:04]
                                              c'est une opinion, de Aigle [2010-02-14 19:36:34]
                                                  Si les opinions sont libres..., de Ennemond [2010-02-14 19:38:34]
                                                  Wikipedia, de Aigle [2010-02-14 19:39:18]
                                                      Un oubli de taille !, de Ennemond [2010-02-14 19:42:56]
                                                          Un autre :, de Athanasios D. [2010-02-14 20:08:18]
                                                              Question..., de Pétrarque [2010-02-14 21:15:56]
                                                                  Ben..., de Athanasios D. [2010-02-14 21:30:42]
                                                                      C'est amusant..., de Pétrarque [2010-02-14 21:35:53]
                                                                          Allons, allons..., de Athanasios D. [2010-02-14 21:43:08]
                                                                              Si vous voulez..., de Pétrarque [2010-02-14 21:51:09]
                                                                                  Je leur répondrai que..., de Athanasios D. [2010-02-14 22:36:02]
                                                              Pourquoi pas ?, de Ennemond [2010-02-14 22:40:11]
                                                                  Dans ce fil..., de Athanasios D. [2010-02-14 23:02:45]
                                                                      pourquoi? le Scribe vous manque, de pyo [2010-02-15 07:49:28]
                                                                      snober, de Ennemond [2010-02-15 09:20:18]
                                                                          Pas si vite !, de Athanasios D. [2010-02-15 11:01:21]
                                                                              Même sans Mgr Gherardini..., de Gentiloup [2010-02-15 12:59:01]
                                                      Non, mais vous vous moquez de nous ???, de Pétrarque [2010-02-14 21:08:42]
                                                  Opinion ?, de Scribe [2010-02-14 19:40:04]
                                          Au moins "un hommage religieux, interne et ex [...], de Athanasios D. [2010-02-14 20:52:55]
                                              Impasse ?, de Scribe [2010-02-14 20:58:39]
                                                  Pour vous en sortir..., de Athanasios D. [2010-02-14 21:28:06]
                                                      Cela ne change pas grand chose, de Scribe [2010-02-14 22:22:32]
                                                          Vous parliez..., de Athanasios D. [2010-02-14 22:39:34]
                                                              Vous êtes en train, de Scribe [2010-02-15 08:45:31]
                                              Ah !....., de origenius [2010-02-14 21:21:24]
                                  Si mon opinion est dangereuse, c'est dans un autre [...], de Lux [2010-02-16 16:15:14]
                                      Vous aimez le danger ?, de Griffon [2010-02-16 17:08:29]
                                          Du calme !, de Lux [2010-02-16 19:35:09]
                          Mieux dit que par moi, de Paxtecum [2010-02-14 19:15:16]
                          De grâce, Aigle, lâchez-nous !, de Pétrarque [2010-02-14 21:03:22]
                              Le relativisme a de l'endurance, il faut le savoir, de Castille [2010-02-15 09:54:39]
              Ouais, de Meneau [2010-02-14 13:19:45]
          Pire moment ?, de Thomas [2010-02-16 17:22:50]
      Surprise pour vous, chère Madame..., de Vianney [2010-02-14 09:22:21]
          Bravo Vianney !, de Jean-Paul PARFU [2010-02-14 09:55:56]
          Conversion des hérétiques, de ptk [2010-02-14 17:05:53]
      Madame ,, de Miserere [2010-02-14 09:51:55]
          Et en avant ...., de Philippeg [2010-02-14 11:41:22]
              Euh !, de Miserere [2010-02-14 17:16:15]
                  Suis d'accord avec votre épouse, de Philippeg [2010-02-14 21:27:22]
      Oui, le vrai, celui qui élève quand il rapproche [...], de Glycera [2010-02-14 10:08:20]
          De même !, de Miserere [2010-02-14 10:25:09]
      Enfin une critique constructive contre la FSSPX !, de Pellicanus [2010-02-14 10:59:56]
          Eh, cher Ennemond ! Message urgent !, de Pellicanus [2010-02-14 11:16:29]
      orthographe, histoire et ecclésiologie, de Luc Perrin [2010-02-14 14:06:23]
      St-Pie X, pape moderniste ?, de Scribe [2010-02-14 14:43:53]
          salut !, de jejomau [2010-02-14 15:44:10]
              Ben voyons, de Meneau [2010-02-14 16:25:43]
                  Justement non, de Anton [2010-02-14 16:35:45]
                      Mais mon bon monsieur !, de Meneau [2010-02-16 00:17:43]
                          Il ne s'agit pas d'insultes, de Anton [2010-02-16 00:25:46]
                          Enfin aprés avoir lu, le çà, de Anton [2010-02-16 02:33:09]
                  oui, de Philippeg [2010-02-14 21:30:21]
              Si benêts que cela les "pidistes"?, de Gentiloup [2010-02-14 17:23:35]
                  Un grand bémol ! , de Halleluia [2010-02-15 00:35:52]
                      Un grand bémol!, de Gentiloup [2010-02-15 12:36:55]
                          Il est étrange que vous n'envisagiez pas la possi [...], de Anton [2010-02-15 16:03:50]
                              Monsieur le donneur de leçons, de Gentiloup [2010-02-15 17:15:05]
                                  Je vous en prie., de Anton [2010-02-15 21:57:52]
                                      Pour Anton, de Meneau [2010-02-16 00:19:20]
                                          Je vous ai répondu plus haut, de Anton [2010-02-16 01:46:51]
                                              pourquoi mettre" cordialement, Anton, de pyo [2010-02-16 08:27:51]
                                                  Je devrais m'excuser dites vous, de Anton [2010-02-16 09:50:02]
                                                      Eh bien, dans le même registre, de Gentiloup [2010-02-16 17:24:10]
                                                          Sourire, personne, de Anton [2010-02-16 17:29:06]
                                                              L'ancrage dans l'insulte, de Gentiloup [2010-02-16 18:21:48]
                                              Très drôle, de Meneau [2010-02-16 14:07:29]
                                                  C'est pourtant écrit ici., de Anton [2010-02-16 16:47:03]
                                                      Je souhaiterai, mon cher Anton..., de origenius [2010-02-16 17:14:29]
                                                      CQFD, de Meneau [2010-02-16 21:27:26]
                                                          Expliquez nous donc, de Anton [2010-02-16 21:52:11]
                                                              Faites un effort, de Meneau [2010-02-16 22:08:06]
                                                                  Pas de cabrioles entre nous..., de Anton [2010-02-16 22:23:07]
                                                                      Autre exemple puisque vous ne voulez pas comprendr [...], de Meneau [2010-02-16 22:36:43]
                                                                          Vous fuyez la question, de Anton [2010-02-16 22:55:10]
                                                                              Effectivement......, de origenius [2010-02-16 23:08:47]
                                                                              Vous ne voulez pas comprendre les réponses, nuanc [...], de Meneau [2010-02-16 23:32:12]
                                                                                  Vous fuyez toujours jouant sur les mots, de Anton [2010-02-17 00:53:41]
                                                                                      Toujours pas compris apparemment, de Meneau [2010-02-17 21:44:43]
                                                                                          Si vous écrivez cela, de Anton [2010-02-17 22:04:59]
                                                                                              Rassurez vous, de Meneau [2010-02-17 22:16:17]
                                                                                                  Rassurez vous aussi, de Anton [2010-02-17 22:41:39]
                                                                                                      Il est interdit de rouler à plus de 110 en ville., de Meneau [2010-02-17 22:54:31]
                                                                                                          Jusqu'à ce moment, de Anton [2010-02-18 03:41:16]
                                                                                      Laisser la liberté de conscience à quelqu'un, de Halleluia [2010-02-19 01:33:20]
                                                                                          Cher , de Anton [2010-02-19 03:43:31]
                                                                                              Voilà comment je comprends le texte , de Halleluia [2010-02-21 03:22:55]
                                                                                                  S'il faut écrire:, de Anton [2010-02-21 16:33:05]
                                                                                                      je continue mon explication, de Halleluia [2010-02-21 18:38:30]
                                                                                                          pas tout à fait d'accord, de Paxtecum [2010-02-21 19:28:11]
                                                                                  A force de raconter des balivernes, de Anton [2010-02-17 01:09:26]
                                                                                      Précisions, de Anton [2010-02-17 01:45:23]
                                                                                          Au sujet de la précision, de Meneau [2010-02-17 22:04:51]
                                                                                              C'est un beau mensonge politicien, de Anton [2010-02-17 22:09:41]
                                                                                                  Faux. Renseignez-vous, de Meneau [2010-02-17 22:21:49]
                                                                                                      Mais là encore, de Anton [2010-02-17 22:33:51]
                                                                                                          Fin, de Meneau [2010-02-17 22:39:25]
                                                                                                              Réponse brève ...., de origenius [2010-02-17 23:14:03]
                                                                                                              Cela ne peut l'être., de Anton [2010-02-18 03:58:48]
                                                                                                                  Pour essayer de me faire comprendre, de Meneau [2010-02-18 14:57:55]
                                                                                                                      donc si je comprends bien, de Paxtecum [2010-02-18 15:51:38]
                                                                                                                          Empêcher la diffusion de l’erreur..., de Vianney [2010-02-18 16:43:24]
                                                                                      Balivernes ?, de Vianney [2010-02-17 06:21:44]
                                                                                          Cher Vianney, de Anton [2010-02-17 22:23:42]
                                                                                              Relisez donc Pie IX, de Vianney [2010-02-18 05:03:24]
                                                                                                  Je lis la loi catholique, de Anton [2010-02-18 09:04:34]
                                                                                                      La question de la conscience erronée, de Vianney [2010-02-18 09:49:03]
                                                                                                          Mêmes remarques...., de origenius [2010-02-18 10:37:48]
                                                                                                              C’est au niveau des principes..., de Vianney [2010-02-18 11:38:35]
                                                                                                              ah bon! les musulmans n'ont pas, de pyo [2010-02-18 12:25:08]
                                                                                                                  Raisonnements ?......, de origenius [2010-02-18 12:49:10]
                                                                                                                      Qu'y-a-t-il de fondamentalement "commun" [...], de Gentiloup [2010-02-18 13:10:21]
                                                                                                                          Décidément ma chère....., de origenius [2010-02-18 13:36:53]
                                                                                                                              Décidément..., de Gentiloup [2010-02-18 14:02:19]
                                                                                                                          Est-ce avec de tels exemples que vous pourrez les  [...], de Glycera [2010-02-18 14:30:29]
                                                                                                                              Madame...., de Meneau [2010-02-18 15:10:13]
                                                                                                                                  Pouvez-vous expliquer ceci ?, de Glycera [2010-02-18 15:32:24]
                                                                                                                                      Bien sûr je peux expliquer. La réponse est non, de Meneau [2010-02-18 15:36:50]
                                                                                                                                          Et avant la naissance de Jésus, aucune vertu ?, de Glycera [2010-02-18 15:48:22]
                                                                                                                                              â€œTous les justes de l’Ancien Testament..., de Vianney [2010-02-18 16:01:52]
                                                                                                                                                  Vous répondez de leur salut certifié, mais non s [...], de Glycera [2010-02-18 16:17:24]
                                                                                                                                                      Il faut distinguer..., de Vianney [2010-02-18 17:00:54]
                                                                                                                                          C'est ce qu'ils appellent "la part de vérità[...], de Castille [2010-02-18 17:58:28]
                                                                                                                              Merci Madame..., de Griffon [2010-02-18 19:40:33]
                                                                                                          Oui un état catholique, de Anton [2010-02-19 04:01:39]
                                                                                                              Visionnaire..., de Vianney [2010-02-19 07:46:24]
                                                                                                                  Pas comme cela?, de Anton [2010-02-19 17:39:39]
                                                                                                                      Contre sens, de Meneau [2010-02-19 21:56:36]
                                                                                                                          Votre contresens pas le mien, de Anton [2010-02-20 00:07:19]
                                                                                                                              Lisez donc ce qui est écrit !, de Meneau [2010-02-20 00:28:55]
                                                                                                                                  la clef n'est-elle pas "définition de fausse [...], de Glycera [2010-02-20 10:54:57]
                                                                                                                                      [réponse], de Meneau [2010-02-20 15:24:24]
                                                                                                                                          Il n'y a pas antinomie..., de Glycera [2010-02-20 19:19:07]
                                                                                                                                              Mais, de Meneau [2010-02-20 20:05:44]
                                                                                                                                              Léon XIII ne limite pas..., de Vianney [2010-02-20 20:23:30]
                                                                                                                                                  L'âne qui ne veut pas boire..., de Glycera [2010-02-20 21:44:18]
                                                                                                                                                      Le coup de pied de l’âne..., de Vianney [2010-02-20 22:44:02]
                                                                                                                                                          Merci pour le rappel de cette citation!, de Gentiloup [2010-02-21 00:58:55]
                                                                                                                                                          Peut-être que Jaurès, de Anton [2010-02-21 16:23:41]
                                                                                                                                                              Quelqu’un ici a-t-il suggéré..., de Vianney [2010-02-21 17:28:02]
                                                                                                                                                                  sauf que César, de Paxtecum [2010-02-21 17:54:59]
                                                                                                                                                                  Pour Anton et Vianney...., de origenius [2010-02-21 17:56:05]
                                                                                                                                                                  Donc, de Anton [2010-02-22 14:44:32]
                                                                                                                                  Si DH affirme cela, de Anton [2010-02-20 22:29:56]
                                                                                                                                      Et donc ?, de Meneau [2010-02-21 00:30:02]
                                                                                                                          Dans quel monde vivez vous?, de Anton [2010-02-20 01:37:03]
                                                                                                                              ..., de Meneau [2010-02-20 10:14:20]
                                                                                                                      Je ne peux que vous donner..., de Vianney [2010-02-20 09:12:49]
                                                                                                                          4 arguments... et une demande de conclusion ?, de Glycera [2010-02-20 10:40:24]
                                                                                                                              Même remarque..., de Vianney [2010-02-20 11:39:17]
                                                                                                                                  C'est ça..., de Griffon [2010-02-20 16:51:56]
                                                                                                                                      Parce que la foi est en jeu..., de Vianney [2010-02-20 18:14:36]
                                                                                                                          Approximations, radotages, insultes gratuites, et  [...], de origenius [2010-02-20 12:03:59]
                                                                                                                              Question ?, de Scribe [2010-02-20 12:10:50]
                                                                                                                                  Je me demandais justement..., de Vianney [2010-02-20 12:53:45]
                                                                                                                                      A Scribe et Vianney, de Anton [2010-02-22 14:58:28]
                                                                                                                                          Enfin !, de Meneau [2010-02-22 16:19:52]
                                                                                                                              Qui vous parle d’anathème ?, de Vianney [2010-02-20 12:33:06]
                                                                                                                              mais ,cher Origénius! je croyais, de pyo [2010-02-20 12:46:02]
                                                                                                                              Mon cher Origenius,, de Gentiloup [2010-02-20 13:04:52]
                                                                                                                              Et à part ça ?, de Meneau [2010-02-20 15:35:49]
                                                                                                                                  Ã§a va bien merci....et vous ?...., de origenius [2010-02-20 17:03:54]
                                                                                                                                      Abrutir, de Vianney [2010-02-20 17:48:36]
                                                                                                                                          Encore une citation ?....., de origenius [2010-02-20 22:03:21]
                                                                                                                                              Je ne parlais pas de vous..., de Vianney [2010-02-20 23:09:17]
                                                                                                                                                  Juste une petite mise au point...., de origenius [2010-02-21 15:35:16]
                                                                                                                                                      Merci pour le procèse d'intention, de Meneau [2010-02-21 16:23:01]
                                                                                                                                                          D'ailleurs, de Meneau [2010-02-21 16:27:02]
                                                                                                                                                      Aucun monopole, de Vianney [2010-02-21 16:48:08]
                                                                                                                                              Semper reformanda ?, de Meneau [2010-02-21 00:08:31]
                                                                                                                                      Et à part ça ?, de Meneau [2010-02-20 17:56:05]
                                                                                                                                  J'avais oublié...., de origenius [2010-02-20 17:11:04]
                                                                                                                                      Sur ce coup là ?, de Scribe [2010-02-20 17:13:26]
                                                                                                                                          Quel dommage ! Mon cher Scribe..., de origenius [2010-02-20 17:31:12]
                                                                                                                                              Question d'argumentation, de Scribe [2010-02-20 17:35:09]
                                                                                                                                                  Facile !....., de origenius [2010-02-20 17:37:37]
                                                                                      Ce que vous dites n'a pas de sens !, de Halleluia [2010-02-21 01:54:17]
                                                                                          Attention de différencier, de Anton [2010-02-21 16:25:46]
                                                                                              Non !, de Halleluia [2010-02-21 19:13:40]
                                                                                  pourtant l'explication de Meneau, de pyo [2010-02-17 07:36:19]
                                                                                       C'est une exécution...? , de origenius [2010-02-17 08:39:16]
                                                                                          Cher Origénius, de Anton [2010-02-17 22:12:51]
                                                                                              Mon cher Anton......, de origenius [2010-02-17 22:56:27]
                                                                                                  en tant que théologien amateur, de Scribe [2010-02-20 19:28:23]
                                                                                      je précise , pour enfoncer le clou, de pyo [2010-02-18 07:45:38]
                                                                                          Pour enfoncer le clou, de Anton [2010-02-19 04:15:34]
                                                                                              Pyo, laissez tomber, de Scribe [2010-02-20 12:13:31]
                                                                          Sainte patience..., de Gentiloup [2010-02-16 23:39:08]
                                                                              Vous avez lu le concile(1), de Anton [2010-02-17 00:58:40]
      J'ai lu dernièrement ici cette phrase:, de Castille [2010-02-14 16:18:15]
          Car Dieu n'accorde RIEN en masse!, de Anton [2010-02-14 16:41:50]
          là je ne vous suis pas, de Paxtecum [2010-02-14 16:46:46]
              [réponse], de Lux [2010-02-14 18:11:52]
                  alors , on est tous d'accord, de jejomau [2010-02-14 19:01:21]
              Ce n'est pas le nombre qui fait le Concile, mais c [...], de Castille [2010-02-15 10:14:40]
                  Mais non..., de Griffon [2010-02-16 19:54:45]
                      Mais non... Mais non..., de Ennemond [2010-02-16 20:17:44]
              le concile, encore et toujours, de Pantelemion [2010-02-18 20:05:31]
              Question de lecture, précisément!, de azur [2010-02-19 18:15:40]
                  je persiste dans ma pensée, de Paxtecum [2010-02-19 22:28:09]
                      [réponse], de azur [2010-02-19 22:40:31]
                      Et dans les faits, qu'en est-il de l'herméneutiqu [...], de Gentiloup [2010-02-19 23:33:48]
                          Wikipedia, de Paxtecum [2010-02-20 00:02:08]
                              L'avis de wikipedia vs. l'avis des théologiens ?, de Meneau [2010-02-20 00:39:45]
                                  Merci et à lire, de Paxtecum [2010-02-20 10:22:02]
                              L'Esprit-Saint de Dieu ne peut ni Se tromper, ni n [...], de Gentiloup [2010-02-20 12:31:29]
                                  Rupture dans la continuité ou continuité dans la [...], de Oesope [2010-02-20 15:15:51]
                                      Dialogue: le grand mot!, de Gentiloup [2010-02-20 21:11:40]